» March 4, 2008 in
When I look at successful internet marketers or people making money online none of them seem to be going after small or non competitive topics.
When I look at people peddling ebooks and keyword tools or struggling to make a full time income it's then I see people suggesting to find non competitive niches.
Is Niche Marketing Stupid?
Two themes that really stuck with me from affiliate summit were:
1. Think big (from the awesome keynote)
2. Big thinkers don't choose low volume niches (from meeting great people)
Both of those points are contrary to the common wisdom of pick a small niche topic.
Certainly there is money in any niche, but is it really worth the time? Wouldn't the time be better spent attacking a topic with tons of volume?
My successful acquaintances don't think small.
John Chow has techzone that focuses on "tech" and his personal blog that focuses on "internet marketing". Both are huge topics.
Problogger has a popular "photography" and "blogging" blog. Both huge topics.
Gary Vaynerchuck picked the topic of "Wine". Huge topic.
Zac Johnson has done well targeting "myspace". HUGE.
Shoemoney is notorious for dominating "ringtones". HUGE.
The list goes on and on.
The success story I never hear:
"I am a super affiliate because I specialize in topics with very little competition."
"I make boatloads of money by building sites on topics with low traffic."
This things just don't happen. If they do they are the exception to the rule. I couldn't even think of one.
Think Bigger
I'm not sure where the "niche marketing" started other than from someone who was trying to put together a good line of crap to sell an ebook.
Yes money can be made with a small niche site. That isn't my argument. Rather, why bother? The odds are better you will hit the lottery than retire from a few niche sites.
Why not go for something worth more than dominating "fly fishing in southern Indiana?" You are going to be putting in the same amount of hours either way.
Are you seeing the same things as me? Where are the success stories of people making a good living on small niche sites?
If you like this post then please consider subscribing to my full RSS feed. You can also Subscribe to 45n5 by Email and have new posts sent directly to your inbox.
Mark from Corolla Beach says on March 4, 2008
Nice analysis Mark. I think the reason that newbies are pointed towards niche marketing is that they can "conquer" a niche like fly fishing in southern indiana and get a sense of accomplishment from setting a goal and meeting it. But you're right, to be successful you need to be able to conquer thousands of small niches simultaneously or get into larger niches.
Dana says on March 4, 2008
Good points, and as a brand new beginner,I think there is definitely a tendency to try to find a niche-within-a-niche so that you end up targeting something like left handed Bohemian duck hunters that live in Oxnard, CA. I will definitely remember to "think big", even if I have to start small.
CDFnetworks () says on March 4, 2008:
You need volume to make money, plain and simple. I like to go for niches that have the widest possible appeal and user base. Even if you capture 1% of a giant niche, its usually better than 100% of a tiny one. Tom Beaton says on March 4, 2008
Different people are in this for different reasons. Some people want a few extra bucks a month pocket money for very little work.
Others are here to build a big business empire. They will need to think big. If you want to be a super affiliate you need to think big.
Then there is thinking huge. Multi million dollar companies need huge ideas, huge commitment and huge investment. Affiliate marketing is growing that way. The big price comparison websites count as huge thinking for affiliate marketing. I dont know what the US equivalent is, but moneysupermarket.com or uswitch.com are massive. They have TV adverts at prime time.
BlogEntrepreneur says on March 4, 2008
Mark,
Very astute post. It is a clash of philosophies though. The smaller niche marketers have a number of small income sites that they hope will add up to a large income. Each site isn't that sophisticated or complicated and they come with a smaller income expecation.
Those that target big niches tend to focus on a "main" site or a Flagship site as Court would say. They invest all or at least a LOT of their time in that flagship site and therefore expect big returns out of that one niche.
Both marketers might get there in the end but they take a different path.
BlogEntrepreneur says on March 4, 2008
Although after rereading your post I have to admit I don't know of a single superaffiliate that does it a few bucks at a time from sites.
Royal Radande says on March 4, 2008
I always go after the big niches. If the competition is fierce, then there's lots of money to be made.
Caroline Middlebrook says on March 5, 2008
As other people have said, there are a lot of beginners out there who try to wade straight into a highly competitive niche and they fall flat on their face. There is always value in thinking big but many people will take on more than they can chew, fail and then give up entirely. You can't make $10k a month without making $1k a month and so on.
Also, there is money in small niches. Ed Dale (the Thirty Day Challenge guy, yeah I know you don't like him!) built 28 small websites in a tiny niche but he ended up dominating the niche with all of the sites. He sold the whole package for five million US dollars. Not bad huh?
James Mann says on March 5, 2008
Well what a refreshing video.
I wouldn't say niche marketing is stupid but if one can go for a bigger market and get a foot hold then niche marketing could appear kind of stupid.
There has been so much focus on niche marketing and grabbing a little piece of the action that I guess I just drifted into it.
I have a couple of domains that I am not happy with as far as the content and plan to do something with them so perhaps I need to do a little more home work and find a market that I can excel at.
Keep the great video and content coming Mark. You make me think and that's not that easy to do.
45n5 () says on March 5, 2008:
Thanks all, interesting replies and most favor niches are for newbs or skip them completely.@caroline - re: ed dale. He doesn't count as he's one of the people selling ebooks and info products (dominiche) saying you can make millions by making niche sites.
Can you think of anybody that isn't pushing an infoproduct about how to make niche riches that has actually made niche riches?
@all - I don't think newbs should tackle a small niche anymore than an old head. You are going to put in the same amount of hours, why not put them towards something bigger?
Affiliate Network says on March 5, 2008
Niche marketing is somehow stupid, but how can you get sales or leads if you don't go over?
Empress says on March 5, 2008
I think variety is the spice of life :) I think there are perks to going for a specific niche - perhaps low competition, the ability to rank well for keywords and they're a great way to learn how the whole affiliate marketing thing works - being able to accomplish the smaller niches will more than likely give that person a taste for something bigger - to go for the bigger niches.
When you go for the bigger, perhaps more lucrative niches out there, I think you would face greater competition - so if you've got a few smaller niches under your belt you have the knowledge on how to kick start your bigger niche domination :)
I think being able to go for both... variety, variety, and more variety!
Richard Callaby says on March 5, 2008
Mark,
What is wrong with using niche marketing to start out? I do not think that this is a problem for the majority of those that start out in Internet Marketing. It means you can can create a small obtainable goal that is achievable by the majority of those out there. Hone your marketing skills on a few niches and then expand out and try to get your brand known to people.
So my strategy is to attack a large niche by breaking it up into smaller niches and then finally incorporate everything together to get a brand in the large niche. By breaking up a large niche into smaller chunks it is far more easier to get a foothold into a large niche. Obviously you have to have a vision and know where you are going with this and be able to adapt to changing market conditions as well. Just my thoughts on the subject.
Traffic Is King says on March 5, 2008
Niche marketing is definitely not stupid. It depends what your trying to do. You can make a ton of money in the smallest niches if your building a list and selling quality products to them over and over again. If your goal is to just drive traffic so that they can click an affiliate link, niche marketing may not be the best way to generate money. You really need to do your research to find out if the volume is there if your goal is to just drive traffic to an affiliate link. With niche marketing, I've been most successful with building a list, creating quality content, and driving them where I want. I create the list and I have more control of where I want the traffic to go.
$1000 Affiliate Experiment says on March 5, 2008
You have to know how to walk before you can run a marathon. It's as simple as that.
Many (most) people don't have the capital to break into a super niche (thats my new term) when they start. If you want to make $20,000/month profit, you probably need to spend at least $10,000/month.
I sure as hell don't have $10,000 laying around. And anyone in their right mind is not going to charge it to a credit card and hope for the best when the 31st rolls around.
And what is this about "Its a waste of time, if you're going to spend the hours, you might as well spend them on something big". Thats quite a flawed statement. Who says that time is not well spent? Can you not apply many of the same conepts you learn from niche marketing to taking over bigger and bigger niches?
You spend years learning algebra in elementry school, and you're telling me you can't use any of it to solve a calculous problem?
-Eric
Geiger says on March 5, 2008
Is "Niche Marketing" stupid? Absolutely NOT! What is "Niche Marketing"? Niche Marketing is a START! Does this mean "Think Small"? NO WAY! Start small is better. How does EVERY non-internet business start? It starts with a specialization. You don't start out saying, "I'm going to start the world's largest construction company". No, you start local. Maybe you specialize in just finishing construction (ie, molding, painting) etc... Perhaps you start with just a "Comercial Kitchen Construction" business. Once you do that, you max out your market/niche THEN you expand. You don't expand if you aren't making money. Perhaps you go from just Kitchens to Kitchens and Bathrooms. Then you add in Tiling. Then Office Spaces. At that point then you grow your area, create new markets and think BIGGER!
45n5 says on March 5, 2008
@eric -
you don't need 10000 to break into a super niche, you can do it with an 8$ domain and some good hosting. Go ask Zac Johnson or darren rowse or copyblogger, etc. about it.
@all - I'm not disagreeing that there is "some" value in niche marketing. I make money from it myself.
I just don't see any examples of people making a good full time income by doing niche marketing.
Once again, the success story I never hear:
"I am a super affiliate because I specialize in topics with very little competition."
If you want to debate the other side please give me some success stories of people making a good full time income with niche marketing (and who aren't peddling an ebook)!
Geiger says on March 5, 2008
Just for the record, John Chow started out with a free site and so did ShoeMoney. These were highly specialized sites that grew, they monetized them. For example, ShoeMoney made a bunch of money from AdSense. He then stopped that and started making much more on affiliate offers. Since then, he makes much more selling his own subscription services. There's an evolution here. Jason Calcanis, who I think started this thinking, is spreading the wrong idea for those starting out.
45n5 says on March 5, 2008
@Geiger - I see no evidence on the internet that says start small to learn or be succesful.
It takes just as much time and effort to promote a website that sells "fishing lures in indiana" as it does to promote your "fishing" site.
Josh Spaulding says on March 5, 2008
Mark,
You're way off on this one.
You're forgetting that there are many different business models out there.
Can you target a very competitive niche and do well? Absolutely! I've done it (I'm doing it now) and many others have as well.
But, I also target many other small niches.
I'm a good example that niche marketing works, but CPT. Tim Gorman is an even better example.
I'm not making 5 figures a month yet, but Tim has been for several years. All from ranking for thousands of long-tail keywords.
Success can be found with many, many different business models.
It all depends on how you go about doing it and what you concentrate on.
Josh Spaulding says on March 5, 2008
P.S. It's not just for beginners!
45n5 says on March 5, 2008
@josh - I'm not way off anything, it was a question ;)
Tim Gorman? A quick google search shows he sells a forum membership and seminars telling people how to get rich by making small niche websites.
Again, The people pushing small niche marketing are the ones selling stuff about doing small niche marketing.
Would you and tim be better off if you had spent the last 5 years going after the big niches instead of long tail stuff? (note, when going big you also get long tail traffic, win/win)
No doubt there is money in the long tail and niche stuff, once again that's not my argument, it's why bother?
"It takes just as much time and effort to promote a website that sells "fishing lures in indiana" as it does to promote your "fishing" site."
Thanks for the thoughts josh ;)
Josh Spaulding says on March 5, 2008
He's a consultant for nicherockets, formerly keywordavalanche. They didn't hire him as a consultant because he was selling ebooks. They brought him on board because he is extremely successful with niche marketing.
He has spoken at several seminars, but I don't believe he has held one, although I may be wrong. You don't get invited to speak at a seminar about niche marketing if you aren't successful in it.
It's extremely inaccurate to judge someones knowledge and/or success on a subject because they're pushing a product.
I sell an article marketing ebook. Does that mean I'm not successful promoting sites with articles? I wrote the ebook BECAUSE I was (and still am) doing well through article marketing and I saw it as 1. a way to teach others and 2. a way to increase my income through my knowledge on the subject. If anyone wants to say I'm wrong in doing #2 I'd ask why they are in this industry in the first place then.
"It takes just as much time and effort to promote a website that sells "fishing lures in indiana" as it does to promote your "fishing" site."
Not necessarily. I've put up many small, niche sites targeting long-tail keywords and had them bringing in upwards of $5/day in the first week.
There are pros and cons with every model. Your argument may be somewhat accurate in the long run, but short term it is MUCH easier to turn a profit competing for long-tail keywords as opposed to competitive.
So, since you're asking, my answer is niche marketing is absolutely, positively not "stupid" in the least bit! It's jut another business model that works if you do it correctly. :)
Jonathan (Trust) says on March 5, 2008
"Is Niche Marketing Stupid?"
Of course it isn't. I've found some niches where there isn't much competition and very little people looking for that niche. I've found some niches where there isn't much competition and lots of people looking for that niche. I like niche, I like mainstream and everything in between.
45n5 says on March 5, 2008
thanks josh for the clarification ;)
"It's extremely inaccurate to judge someones knowledge and/or success on a subject because they're pushing a product."
I wanted examples of people without a financial gain from the spread of the idea.
"Your argument may be somewhat accurate in the long run"
That's the only run I care about anymore ;)
@trust - I missed you at affiliate summit. Not that i know what you look like, but nobody ever said hey I'm John Trust.
Josh Spaulding says on March 5, 2008
Don't forget the rest of the quote though:
"Your argument may be somewhat accurate in the long run, but short term it is MUCH easier to turn a profit competing for long-tail keywords as opposed to competitive."
...and when I say that, I don't mean it's only short term. Long-term those niche sites will still be making just as much if not more than if you went for a competitive term(s.) You just see a ROI sooner with niche marketing.
I see what you're looking for hear. Just seemed like you were implying something ;)
45n5 says on March 5, 2008
@josh I was implying something, that I'm going to be doing less niche stuff ;)
Collin - Feed Flare says on March 5, 2008
Great post Mark. I hope I can get there with my niche :) it is a huge topic that no one really covers.
Oh on a different note I got my site to view with Lynx, it was a security issue with in my server that needed to be altered. My site looks great BTW, content is with in the first 10 lines.
Collin
ThoughtSponge says on March 6, 2008
I agree with a lot of what you had to say. Finding a niche is all about find the need first. If you are going to create a website about something without an interest, then you are not going to have any traffic. On the other hand, if you do a little research and figure out what people need, then you have the ability to provide them with a service.
Louis Liem says on March 6, 2008
when beginners jump directly right to a saturated topic, they'll success if they are determined and tough. It may take much longer to earn a decent amount of cash on a huge topic, but there are lots can be learned and the experience points are greater.
when they choose a friendlier niche, they may overcome problems and barriers easier, but the income may not isn't as big as the first option. that's why they also throw themelves in to another specific niche and duplicate the system.
success or not less depends on the choices we make, but good results relies on how well we do our choices
Matt Jones says on March 6, 2008
One of the reasons you don't hear about successful niche marketers is that they never become well known in any large niche. E.g. there is little point in someone who is building lots of small niche sites to attend networking events and make a name for themselves. The people you hear about are skewed in favour of people who have been successful in large niches.
I think there is value in both techniques, Garry Conn is a rare example of a niche marketer who is also making a name for himself.
Charlie says on March 6, 2008
I think that for those of us who don't really have much experience in nich marketing and have been spending more time reading and learning from blogs like yours, it is a little more appropriate to start small. I would love to aim for bigger targets but right now this is still new to me and many of the readers that read these types of blogs.
I don't disagree that bigger would be better, but I don't think that targetting a small niche vs targetting a large niche would be the same or that it would take the same amount of time.
I would love to read more posts about "how to" for larger niches from you. I do enjoy your blog and I'm still fairly new to it.
Thanks.
45n5 says on March 6, 2008
thanks all for the continued great comments ;)
@charlie - "I would love to read more posts about "how to" for larger niches from you. I do enjoy your blog and I'm still fairly new to it."
thanks for checking out 45n5. Do you have a blog?
I've never built a larger niche site so i'm not sure I can give you any specifics, but I do plan to with camcorder.fm so stay tuned ;)
Geld Lenen says on March 10, 2008
I think/know that there are no examples of successful niche marketing, because of the word "niche". Niches are small and don't have a lot of competition. When you've cracked a niche and your dominating it with 5 sites, you can make a lot of money.
The point is, when you tell people of your success in these small niches, they will be your competitors. Goodbye successful niche!
PS: the video is broken.
Greg C. says on May 5, 2008
Frankly, you don't "hear" about many successful niche marketers because they don't sit around blogging about themselves all day. Most of your examples of successful people are social bloggers who blog for notoriety. Many niche marketers are the type of people who just want to make a living and spend time with their families.
This is like saying that a restaurant is a failure if they serve less than McDonalds or that a chef isn't good if he doesn't have a show on the Food Network.
I'm in business to make money, not go to shows or be worshiped on blogs.
I think the best approach is to do both/all. Break down into smaller niches while also going for the big terms. I have found that both approaches help each other out.
Erik says on July 9, 2008
If you are operating in a niche market with high profit volumes, you don't need much clients to run a good business. An other aspect is that you don't have a lot of competitors ,in for example, advertising in google adwords....
The 45n5.com Membership SiteTry MashupMoney.com, $1 for 7 day trial.
Start Your Own Membership SiteAmember rocks, free download and trial.
Create Your Own Mailing ListAweber is the best in the business, check them out.