» August 10, 2007 in
Not the format or community, the content I thought the thirty day challenge was going to be a review of the fundamentals of making money online. You know, here's how to get content online, how to use affiliate ads, how to know what visitor stats matter, here's x amount of ways to monetize a page, best way to build relationships in a niche, best practices for keeping good in google, etc.etc.
I was very wrong.
After 10 days they have people chasing their tails around in circles trying to come up with magic formulas of how google trends results look compared to number of search results (for instance).
If there is any leverage to be found by finding inefficiencies between the number of perceived searches (google trends) and the competition (google total results) this has long ago been exploited by script kiddies and the like.
This has so little to nothing to do with "market research" or making money online in my opinion (and I'm sure many others).
But some people actually make $10 with these techniques?
Well, if you let 5,000 people loose on the internet to make money I'm sure some will do it by accident, however this isn't indicative of a great training program.
I would wager that instead of having people look at random equations of searches/search results for days on end that by simply having people write 3 articles per day on a topic they are interested in for 30 days you would have more success stories.
My simple equation mixed with some good fundamentals on link building and relationship building would result in each member having a website with 90 unique pages at the end of the month and a favorable standing in their niche community. I say this simple exercise would have a greater result than the hocus pocus of using goofy equations.
Lighten up Dude!
The girlfriend said I should just keep quiet about finding the teachings lame (keep the peace) but I didn't think that would be fair to the people who read this blog for the challenge updates or the folks on my 30dc team. Presumably you do so for my opinion.So things are very light, just keeping it real ;-)
And...
I don't regret promoting the challenge, (my blog points out the happening stuff in this neck of the woods, and the challenge was pretty happenin), and I'm only saying the training content is lame.
Many of the people have been amazing and I've met many great contacts through the challenge.
But, I think the training of magic search equations and "parasite seo" (which is what it's called when you use another site to rank your affiliate content) is certainly not the least bit useful for anybody that wants to make money online for more than 30 days.
Nothing personal to the trainers either, they both seem like nice guys, I just don't like the content of the training.
If my updates on the challenge cease you know why.
(ps, if you want to learn real fundamentals of earning money online I highly recommend this blog by problogger who is also doing a challenge this month)
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TextadSearch says on August 11, 2007
Is this the start of a 30DC backlash?
The 30DC was not what I was expecting, I to thought they would cover the basics. I also found that the way the training was presented was confusing and left me wondering what the hell it was all about and what was going on. Am I meant to be doing something?
Everyone wants to know how to make money on line, the problem is there is no one single answer. However the fundamentals are the same whatever you do to make money online.
I fear everyone wants a simple answer, such as do this, click this, follow this list step by step and you will be rich. Unfortunately the internet does not work like that.
You could follow a blueprint to the letter and have absolutely no success whatsoever. The fact is that there are factors beyond your control that can have a major impact on your success.
JasperP says on August 11, 2007
I think you just received the "TDC Slap". =D
Yeah, I don't think they answer the questions very well, but I guess they're just basing their findings on their results rather than the way it works. I guess you don't have to be a computer scientist to sell/promote products online.
I still don't know how reliable the GTrends Technique since they closed the damn thread, but I'm still going to keep it mind that just because it doesn't show up in GTrends doesn't mean it is a bad keyword.
Here is the closed forum post on "The reliability of the GTrends Technique":
http://www.thirtydaychallenge.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1912
I guess we'll see how accurate the technique is if I can get my web site to a #1 spot.
Keep us posted if you're still hanging around the 30DC
Ed says on August 11, 2007
Everyone has to have a point of view and our training style is for sure not for everyone. But you are jumping to a whole host of assumptions that just don't/won't pan out
You'll remember I started day 1 saying that any successful Internet strategy has 4 sections and their order is vital.
95% of Internet business's stuff up because they don't do market research properly. It's why we spent so much time on it.
Thanks for trying us out - I understand we are not everyones cup of tea...
Ed
marc eilbeck says on August 11, 2007
I think its good you voice your opinion because a lot of people are too scared to do it. well done m8!
45n5 () says on August 11, 2007:
@ed - I'm not making a single assumption, everything is true. I see the enthusiasm and people saying they "are doing dances around their desk" etc. because they've been staring at google trends for hours (or days) and think they've got some magic equation from it or some secret niche they've found based on some made up formula.It's terrible for the people because they sincerely want a better life for themselves but aren't learning any skills to get them there.
Market research is not playing with counting google results, that is laughable, even though the training has everybody doing it for hours on end, you know that just as much as anybody else that's been making money online for more than 2 weeks.
No it wasn't my cup of tea, thanks for the comment.
@textadsearch - no I don't thinks it's the start of a backlash, and I agree 100% there is no 1 answer, and i agree even more that even though there is no one answer there are solid proven fundamentels that do work that seem to be missing from the training
@JasperP - "I guess we'll see how accurate the technique is if I can get my web site to a #1 spot." Even that will never tell you how accurate google trends is, google trends is based off searches not clicks, which google themselves says is no more than "entertaining", it's all hocus pocus. Use adwords (get a free $50 coupon by looking around) and see how accurate the tools are with real data for free.
@marc - no problem, thanks for reading ;-)
Glen says on August 11, 2007
Hi, I’m a newbie to internet marketing and 2007 is my first 30DC, the whole challenge has launched a new career/lifestyle for me and many others. Both Ed and Dan have taken things back to basics and removed the stigma that successful business's online are only for the techie geeks of the world who tend to covet this medium and who think they own it.
What they are actually doing is sharing or exposing the simplicity of using these applications and tools to better the lives of so many people and that has to be a good thing right!
People who already know how to use this stuff are bound to find it a little boring and I suppose old hat or a little frustrated after having spent years discovering them for themselves.
Bear in mind though how grateful they would have been had Ed and Dan been around back then when they first started out, I’m sure they would take a different view.
Everyone does have their own opinion and in my opinion someone's jealous here! Probably spitting their teeth out that they didn't think of the 30DC idea first and that Ed and Dan beat them to the gates of opening up internet opportunities to others, hahaha Ed and Dan you guys ROCK!
This training can be perceived as lame by those who already know it, although how lame should be measured on how much money they have made from using these techniques.
If the word lame here is being used to comment on the teaching methods, Ed has an uncanny ability to translate jargon into a language that newbie’s can understand and relate to which improves learning rather than confusing it.
It is so refreshing to be taught by people who are not egotistical or arrogant and who are normal, natural creative individuals who want to make a real difference.
When people try to assassinate the creative works of others it just adds credibility to the victims and promotes testimony to the value of those creative works that they are pissing someone off because they thought of it first.
i totally agree that we should "keep it real"
SPARAR () says on August 11, 2007:
The Thirty Day Challenge Rock's!45n5 () says on August 11, 2007:
@glen - you say "What they are actually doing is sharing or exposing the simplicity of using these applications and tools to better the lives of so many people"that is my point, they aren't showing people the basics of making money online. Nobody that has been doing this more than two weeks counts google results and makes up goofy equations from the inaccurate google trends.
Do a search, point me to anybody reputable that says these are the basics of making money online. Seriously.
Just because someone calls these people a "guru" doesn't mean you aren't allowed to question the methods or speak your opinion about them, in fact it should be WELCOMED if they really cared about the success of their members.
I'm all for helping people make money online, look around here at the FREE tips and Tools i provide, without a single upsell to be found.
"When people try to assassinate the creative works of others it just adds credibility to the victims and promotes testimony to the value of those creative works that they are pissing someone off because they thought of it first."
Slow down cowboy. I'm merely saying the training is very lame, which many, many, people would agree with.
SPARAR - good luck with it ;-)
SPARAR () says on August 11, 2007:
Apologies if I ruffled some feathers, not my intention at all, I understand the points you made but should we not all work together rather than attempt to build our own credibility at the expense of pulling others down, to work on a creative plane rather than a competitive one, everyone wins.it will be interesting to hear your opinion after the 30 days to see if you did actually learn anything. Did not the golden nugget PDF lead you to a very powerful resource "The Gary Halbert Letters" archive or are they common knowledge to those in the know?
45n5 () says on August 11, 2007:
@Sparar - you didn't ruffle any feathers, I'm glad you stopped by and love that you took the time to ad a picture, welcome to the blog."should we not all work together"
I would second that however if you point out a different opinion than theirs on their site they "close the thread" (see above) or offer snarky and rude remarks towards you. Maybe you might tell them that ;-)
I would also ad that I do consider offering alternative opinions "working together".
"attempt to build our own credibility at the expense of pulling others down"
Of course I'm trying to build my own credibility, which would mean if I promote something like the 30dc and see it isn't living up to what I thought it would be, I'm HONEST about it. That is 100% credibility building, guilty as charged, however not at the random expense of others, just offering my opinions here, which nobody seemed to mind when I was offering favorable opinions of the 30dc.
"it will be interesting to hear your opinion after the 30 days to see if you did actually learn anything."
of course I'd learn something, that isn't my point, I learn things everyday from just reading blogs.
my point is: they are teaching hocus pocus, the core of their "market research" is hocus pocus, just because you now know about many of these tools doesn't make you any more suited to make money online vs. somebody that just starting making content and learned some real fundamentals that I mentioned in the post.
thanks for the input ;-)
SPARAR () says on August 11, 2007:
Hahaha your welcome, this may be an effective way to prostitute your site but disrespectful toward the 30DC team all the same. it makes you appear to be one of those people that comes down the hill after the battle to shoot to wounded, take no prisoner marketing is ruthless and effective too I guess but shows bad form, when you bite the hand that feeds you.As you have kindly pointed out, i am supporting your method by responding and visiting your site so with that in mind i bid you farewell and end this thread here.
Good luck
Dee Harrison says on August 11, 2007
Well one could of course say how ill-mannered to leave unsupportive threads on a forum to which you have been admitted as a guest. Are you surprised they were removed?
If you were not finding the TDC material useful, the well-mannered thing would have been to leave quietly and close the door behind you.
I wish you well in your endeavours but I feel sorry for you if you have to validate your actions by making other people wrong.
There are many, many ways to run an online business. We are being shown one on the TDC; we are being shown free of charge; I have never heard Ed or Dan refer to themselves as Gurus.
If you wish to denigrate people perhaps your focus would be better placed on those who rob the unsuspecting of $000s every year and teach them nothing in return.
I am throughly enjoying the TDC. I have already learned a lot about simply being on the internet which will enable me to be far more productive - that in itself will equate to more than a $10 win. I am sorry it has not been a success for you.
Tyler says on August 11, 2007
Mark,
I'm glad you finally said what's on most of our minds. Even though I have a year of experience working online, I was also looking forward to the challenge as a fun "refresher" course. Unfortunately, as you have pointed out in detail, it was anything but that, and I quickly lost interest within a few days (I was also annoyed by all the Facebook messages I received from people that were bragging about making $20 from online surveys).
For all those people that have commented here and said that they wouldn't know how to make money online without the challenge, here's what you do in five easy steps:
1. Pick a topic (http://seoblackhat.com/2007/02/21/online-business-niches/)
2. Buy a domain
3. Build a mini site (http://www.45n5.com/permalink/howto-build-a-content-minisite-in-under-10-minutes.html or http://www.45n5.com/permalink/howto-build-a-youtube-ebay-amazon-mashup-affiliate.html)
4. Install a free analytics program (Google Analytics, Sitemeter, etc)
5. Spend a 1 to 3 hours building links (http://www.softwareprojects.com/resources/traffic-attract-customers/t-beginners-guide-to-seo-link-building-1357.html)
**Repeat this easy process everyday**
Now, if you spent a couple of hours each day doing this for the 30 days, you would have thirty quality sites at the end of the month. Instead of obsessing over Google Trends, you can use the ACTUAL search data from these sites to decide which ones have the most potential, and then focus on building more content and links for them.
It's really that easy people (and you should all thank Mark for creating tools that are actually useful...not silly tool bars that do absolutely nothing unique)!
koen () says on August 11, 2007:
Tyler, you got some nice steps in there ;) I'll make sure to remember them when I got some spare time.I signed up for the 30DC yesterday, not because I wanted to follow it, but just out of curiosity, (and learning some extra english from the podcast). Actually it was pretty booring. I have only seen about picking a niche yet. Might be just me.
No offense all, please don't start yelling at each other for giving their honest opinion.
45n5 () says on August 11, 2007:
@tyler, I'm not sure who you are (do you have a blog?) but you put it perfectly what people should be doing to make money online. You plan is quite simple and powerful and looks to have people making money for a long time.@koen - you can try the plan for dirt cheap also, godaddy offers 1.99 domains at the moment, buy 5 for ten bucks, and follow tylers plan for awhile, it only costs $10 to get started and no bs, just pick popular niches, preferably based around a product.
Mike says on August 11, 2007
I have been in IM for about 2 years and I am enjoying the challenge. For me it has renewed my interest in looking at different ways of making money online. I also like the community aspect with everyone focused on the one goal.
Jason says on August 11, 2007
Mark, I was somewhat relieved to find your post. It seemed like every time the TDC was mentioned people were equating it with crapping unicorns. I was wondering if I was the only one feeling that the challenge wasn't meeting the hype. I shared my feelings about it here: http://www.thejasonmurphyshow.com/2007/08/10/the-20-day-challenge/
koen () says on August 12, 2007:
1.99? Lowest I see is 2.99, and I haven't gotten an offer for 1.99 at the mail, as far as I can see.Anyways, I'm probably going to buy some extra domains around 10-15 september, because I then had my birthday, and I will ask my parents to give me some paypal cash too ;)
Thanks for the tip, I'll keep it in my mind.
45n5 () says on August 12, 2007:
@koen - you are correct, i was thinking of an old sale, .com's look like $6.95 which is pretty good@jason - thanks for the mention
koen () says on August 12, 2007:
"Products must be new to the customer (not currently owned) to qualify. One 1 yr $1.99* .com, .us, .biz, .info, .name, .net, or .org domain per each qualifying product; new, transfer or renewal. Recurring billing charges, existing product, domain renewals, domain backorders, premium domain names and domain registration products (such as Privacy, Business Registration, Certified Domain, Domain Ownership Protection and CashParking), Gift Cards, photo prints and merchandise, and some "add-on" companion products (such as additional hosting bandwidth and storage) do not qualify as product purchases. Only qualifying domain names included in qualifying purchases are subject to discount."Doh, if I knew that. I recently bought hosting, then indeed I would have a $1.99 .com domain.
John says on August 12, 2007
I've been going through the 30 day challenge with 4 or 5 others at my office. We have all agreed that even if we don't make the $10 in the 30 days, there are still some valuable tips to be pulled from the challenge. I've been introduced to several new blogs that are producing quality content and have been introduced (or re-introduced) to some tools that really make some aspects of what we all do easier.
I do have one beef with the 30DC, though. In a podcast during the pre-season, Ed mentioned that their test subject earned his $10 in 6 days. However, we are currently at day 12 and, if you do only as you are told in the 30DC, we don't even know how to turn our niches in to an income. Sure, I have a pretty good idea of where we are going, but by instruction alone, we are still 4 or 5 days away from the possibility of earning $10 bucks.
I am also following along with problogger.net's challenge as well. If you want to be a money making blogger, I'd say that's one of the top sites to add to your RSS reader.
Keep up the solid posts, man. I dig your blog.
Tyler says on August 12, 2007
@Mark: I had an IM/SEO blog for about a year, but I eventually lost interest in it (so if you're ever running low on ideas for content, feel free to turn my comment into a post).
45n5 () says on August 12, 2007:
@koen - I could have saved you 97$ at dreamhosthttp://www.45n5.com/permalink/dreamhost-max-discount-promo-code.html
@john - thanks for the kind words
@tyler - I will keep that in mind, thanks
koen () says on August 12, 2007:
Mark, I payed just $75 for 3 years ;)Basic package, for 36 months, with 25% discount on purchases of $75 or more...
mark petzold says on August 12, 2007
A comment from Robert Sommerville in the thread you linked to:
"It takes the same amount of work to rank for a key phrase that has no traffic as it does to rank for a key phrase with plenty of traffic. So you had better make as sure as you can that the key phrase you target will reward you in terms of receiving traffic."
That seems like sound advice to me. Even going with the "45n5 strategy", why not take the time to find an under-served niche that you can dominate with your 90 articles a month?
45n5 () says on August 12, 2007:
@mark petzold - thanks for the comment"It takes the same amount of work to rank for a key phrase that has no traffic as it does to rank for a key phrase with plenty of traffic."
is very silly.
therefore it takes just as much work to rank for "underwater kick boxing" as it does for "digital camera". that quote doesn't make any sense like most of things the experts there are saying.
"why not take the time to find an under-served niche that you can dominate with your 90 articles a month"
Certainly sounds like a good idea to me, but you will be only wasting time by counting google results, that is seriously laugable.
It doesn't take very long to find a result set with 100,000 results which is extremely competitive to rank top 50 for yet one with 1,000,000 results that has only garbage in the top.
Yet all of the sheep are following and counting google results like it really matters, when it just takes two seconds of original thinking to see it's nonsense.
I agree that "if" you can find an under serviced niche go for it.
mark petzold says on August 12, 2007
"therefore it takes just as much work to rank for "underwater kick boxing" as it does for "digital camera". that quote doesn't make any sense like most of things the experts there are saying."
That's not what I understood them to be saying. My interpretation is that there is no relationship between *number of searches* and difficulty in ranking. Therefore you should find a niche with a high number of searchers, and a low number of search results.
Your point that low search results doesn't necessarily equal low competition is well taken.
On the other hand the 30DC guys claim that their as-yet-unrevealed methods will allow you to dominate a niche that isn't already dominated by "web 2.0" results. That, to me, is the claim that I find hard to believe.
I'm still playing along; I'm really curious to see where they're going with this.
45n5 () says on August 12, 2007:
@mark - maybe I did misinterpret things but I'm sure I'm not misinterpreting your summation:"Therefore you should find a niche with a high number of searchers, and a low number of search results. "
It doesn't matter how many pages a search result returns, if you have heavyweights in the top 20-40 pages you are dead in the water, that is isn't exactly rocket science to destroy their counting method.
In fact they do things back assward. If you want to "judge the competition" you don't start with the count (the meaningless high end), you start with the low number search results and look at the quality there because that is where you want to be, page 50 and beyond is almost irrelevant.
"I'm really curious to see where they're going with this."
Day 8 was the "The Most Important Day Of The Challenge" so I wouldn't hold your breathe ;-)
However I'm guessing Ed is stopping back here reading the further input from everybody so they may be retooling. Hopefully anyway.
Tino says on August 14, 2007
To be honest I'm not paying much attention to it anymore.
As you said well, it just goes round in circles.
It's day 14 and I haven't learned anything major yet.
They just keep going on about google trends. There are many other keyword tools with proven track record (I know of many). In a training like this you need information about content creation and how to monetize your site.
45n5 () says on August 14, 2007:
@tino - you are not aloneSefiant says on August 15, 2007
I can understand the teachings for some reason. Its not completely hard and I had never even heard of Web 2.0, until 3 weeks ago, let alone 'Affiliate marketing' or Adsense/Adwords or earning money online (by the thousands per month that is).
You just have to think a little more about and dont rely on the teachings to tell you EVERY little thing that you should do. We are all adults we can think thoroughly on our own so why are we having such high expectations on a training process that is free?
I AM a newbie its perfect for me, but I understand it, even if people find the way Ed teaches a little confusing.
I don't know just pay attention to what Ed says and don't pay attention the ramblings of Ed. There is such a thing as selective hearing so just be patient and take into account the important/meaty stuff in the challenge.
Like he says you have to test a market before you can find out if they are profitable - so he is teaching us one way (probably not the best way i think) to. I have found many great potential niches with the Gtrends technique which all have affiliates and I wish I had time to do all 8 of them (yes, 8 niche ideas).
If you want to know the method I applied to finding these niches contact me and ask about how or else good luck and keep going with the 30DC!
(If you quit... then that's a reason for me to disrespect you I guess)
EyesOpen says on August 18, 2007
There is a very real psychological dynamic that happens when people have invested their time into something that turns out to be faulty. They will find a way to rationalize it to save face. That's what I see happening with TDC members on the TDC blog this morning. It is refreshing to find this site and read some rational commentary.
45n5 () says on August 18, 2007:
@EyesOpen - thanks, do you have a blog?
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